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"L’assurance du pilote rechignant à payer davantage, "
Consternant.....
Et le pire c'est qu'on y va tout droit, avec notre belle société qui ne voit plus que par le fric

Bien relevé

antilolo a écrit :"L’assurance du pilote rechignant à payer davantage, "
Consternant.....
Et le pire c'est qu'on y va tout droit, avec notre belle société qui ne voit plus que par le fric

ouais s'est le premier truc que j'ai remarqué en lisant l'article sur "Le Temps". Quand on pense que le type était vivant...

bernotom a écrit :

EmmaZ a écrit : http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/faits_diver ... n-27727408

J’ai lu ca à midi, il a du atterrir en amont de la partie canyon.
Ca doit être frustant quand on apercoit l'hélicoptaire une 15aine de fois!!

On a retrouvé sa voile dans une cascade, prise dans des troncs!!
Holzi a même récupéré un petit mousqueton dessus!

Pour Gitpuxi:

Oscar, suite à ton observation de débit sur Trummel, votre relais dans la C48, c’est des vis Multi-Monti ? Ou dans le style.
Vous avez mis 2 plaquettes avec 2 maillons rapides sur chaque plaquette c’est bien ce relais-là ?
On ne l’a pas utilisé.

For Gitpuxi:
Oscar, following your comment for Trummelbach, in the 48m waterfall, the bolts you ad, it is Multi-Monti screw, or something similar?
We didn’t used it.

Salut Bernotom

oui exact, c'est l'relais, two multi-monti with maillons sur le bord the la plataforme, only for recuperer la corde tranquilament without hooking and not frotamments in the last 8 meters.

Pity not to have coincided.

I just had an e-mail coversation with Andreas Brunner who did the first descent of Trümmelbach in 2000.
On their first descent they used only TWO 8mm hand drilled bolts!!
They did all the other abseils on natural anchors like locked wood or rock-cracks.
This is an incredible effort.

oh my god....
I can't believe that...
I knew he liked to use natural anchors as much as possible, but to that extend....

it is clear that the first explorers of all difficult descents, have all the merit and should be them a lot of respect for his first descent and not change the gear for what was his opening criterion. I am totally against the surequipe the canyons, as the rivers have less iron better.
There are not that adapt the canyon to our abilities, have to adapt our capabilities to the canyon.
In the descent with my friend, I did not want hooking the rope to recover and die of cold into the canyon because nobody knew where we were, therefore improvise this petit relais.... but if andreas brunner tells me that out, next year i come back to remove

Incredible!!! Only 2 bolts!

giputxi a écrit :............. In the descent with my friend, I did not want hooking the rope to recover and die of cold into the canyon because nobody knew where we were, therefore improvise this petit relais.... but if andreas brunner tells me that out, next year i come back to remove

I think he doesn't care that much about putting new bolts in his opened canyons. But as you said we should keep them as clean and as minimal equiped as they are.
One year after the first descent a friend of Andreas Brunner equipped the canyon with the bolts which are now still on place.

Other groups added some bolts on the right hand side of the big abseil to do it out of water and I replaced last year already three rosty anchors with new one.

I tested last year one plate and maillon of the Trümmelbach anchors (see post in 2011). They were still ok in terms of breaking strength, but I have seen this year, that the bolts look very rusty now as they are normal steel bolts (not stainless) and are already for 11years in the canyon. It's hard to tell how good they still are. So I suggest to replace next year all points with stainless steel anchors but not put additional anchors. So the canyon remain as it is but with proper and safe equipment.

holzi a écrit :So I suggest to replace next year all points with stainless steel anchors but not put additional anchors. So the canyon remain as it is but with proper and safe equipment.

For my part I think that maybe an additionnal point where you hold the rope for us on the trunks and you jumped last could be useful. With just people like me in the group, we would have needed the bolt. But then, OK, in most groups canyoning in this kind of canyon you can find someone who is not really afraid of jumps, and I think just NOBODY amongst Switzerland canyoneers is as frightened of jumps as me!!!

As for Brunner I think it is a game for him, using as little bolts as possible.
What's incredible is that he does hat in very difficult canyons with amazing waterlevels... This guy comes from outer space!
It's good to know that the fact he did a canyon doesn't mean anybody else could do it without new equipment!

The good thing with Multi-Monti is that you can take them away easily!

giputxi a écrit :There are not that adapt the canyon to our abilities, have to adapt our capabilities to the canyon.

giputxi a écrit :There are not that adapt the canyon to our abilities, have to adapt our capabilities to the canyon.

+1

giputxi a écrit :There are not that adapt the canyon to our abilities, have to adapt our capabilities to the canyon.

+1

Laurinette a écrit :For my part I think that maybe an additionnal point where you hold the rope for us on the trunks and you jumped last could be useful.

At this waterfall, it would be easy to put a sling of rope around a tree, and so no need to jump and no bolt!

holzi a écrit :

giputxi a écrit :There are not that adapt the canyon to our abilities, have to adapt our capabilities to the canyon.

+1

+2!

or else you can wait for the canyon to become easier: for example Tine des Fonds last year was not really difficult. With the glacier and the snow getting smaller and smaller, sometimes it is just a matter of years !
or else you can also count on others in your group (on Holzi to hold the rope for us for example! )

Thanks to all...I'm glad you all think alike. In the world some think that if I can not do something, others also cannot do, and that's often the problem...

see you in hell

Laurinette a écrit :
or else you can wait for the canyon to become easier: for example Tine des Fonds last year was not really difficult. With the glacier and the snow getting smaller and smaller, sometimes it is just a matter of years !
or else you can also count on others in your group (on Holzi to hold the rope for us for example! )

Maybe we should do a historic trip in Trummelbach using a maximum of 2 of the bolts to get the true experience

Yes - if we wait enough years we'll be able to do Trummelbach in the Summer!

Salut

Vous pouvez former un clean canyon team et faire la descente sans ancrages permanents - ca passe certainement en fevrier avec assez de glace.

De l'époque avant la perfo à accu il manquent normalement les photos. Je ne sais pas pour les Bernois, mais pour Costa par exemple il n'y a pas de photos selon Andreas. De meme de la phase des autres ouvertures au Tessin.

J'aimerais composer pour le prochain rassemblement à Trin un point de programme "L'histoire d'ouverture - une retrospective et une vision pour la descente la plus clean possible au futur". Merci pour me partager des photos, experiences, histoires etc.; et de venir montrer les tecniques americains (ancrages temporaires).

Gruass, Timo

well actually, I really don't think I want to had more difficulties to those canyons!
I just admire what Brunner has been able to do, but don't feel like doing the same!

Your idea is great Timo! But in that case it would be much better to have Brunner and Baumgartner and Co coming to talk about that as they have the experience first hand!

Laurinette a écrit :well actually, I really don't think I want to had more difficulties to those canyons!
I just admire what Brunner has been able to do, but don't feel like doing the same!

Your idea is great Timo! But in that case it would be much better to have Brunner and Baumgartner and Co coming to talk about that as they have the experience first hand!

Salut Laurinette

Andreas ne pouvait pas se liberer et venir au rassemblement de 2012 à Trin (l'idée me venait cette année trop tard pour trouver un réprésentant de l'époque pour une présentation / revue aux histoires des premires grandes ouvertures). Je vais allors de nouveau l'essayer pour 2013 ...


Gruass, Timo

il lui reste donc un an pour apprendre l'anglais ou le français.. .parce que sinon, pas grand monde ne ne comprendra!

Laurinette a écrit :il lui reste donc un an pour apprendre l'anglais ou le français.. .parce que sinon, pas grand monde ne ne comprendra!

Salut Laurinette

Alternative: Apprendre le Suisse-Allemand

C'est tout l'hiver que vous avez le temps

Gruass, Timo