commission internationale canyon

[bertrandber]

est-ce que l'un d'entre vous a suivi entierement le cursus de la cic ? si oui, les techniques sont-elles globalement identiques a l'efc ? est-ce que ca vous a plu ?

[mvdlans]

Salut,

I will answer you in english since I'm dutch and my french writing is very bad. I'm half way the course of the CIC, and am now a assistent guide. I have also the new canyoning book from the EFC.
The techniques are almost the same, we also use a huit debrayable or the demi cabestan. The biggest difference I think is that the CIC is a more practical course. That means; do everything with less techniques. Also the CIC is very known for it's white water training in the icekanal (swimming in white water grade III and IV in a former olympic kayak site).

I'm not sure wich is the best. I've never done a french stage. But the EFC is well known for all it's different techniques.

I hope this will answer your questions. If you're having troubles with the english I'll try to translate it for you.

Cheers,

Michiel

[bertrandber]

hi michiel
first, i thank you to have answered. it is a good occasion to have fresh news about the cic course. i'm probably going to join the cic school on next may. some french cic guide told me that it's a quite difficult school. last year, four people out nine failed half the course ans didn't reach the step guide assistant.
my question is about the general level required (physical and technical) ta have a good chance to succeed. as the school is quite expensive and takes a long time, i would prefer to be ready and well-trained.
i only passed the first efc stage which give you the main technics. i do also runnind and swimming each day.
what do you think about.
thanks by advance.
bertrand

[laurent Boero]

my question is about the general level required (physical and technical) ta have a good chance to succeed

Peut être quelques éléments de réponses avec le lien ci-dessous...

http://www.toofiles.com/fr/oip/document ... 12cic.html

Kénavo

Lolo

[mvdlans]

Hy Bertrand,

I'm glad to help you. If you use the EFC techniques it shouldn't be a big problem. They are quite the same we use at the CIC. But the techniques and knots must be perfectly under control and done in a Hoffman way, that means no hessitation and perfect control. It is probbably a good idea to buy the book from Stefan. It's in reprint and will come out this winter.

Physical the course is very very tough. The first three days in Augsburg are really gruesome; the whole day in the water, rescue techniques, diving etc, running with backpacks in your neoprene combination and in the evening theory and a few hours sleep.

Then you move to Austria for the rest. Not so physical but more mental. In the mornings theory (after some running and all the stupid army excercises (running with people on your back, push ups etc etc), and practise new techniques, than over to the Weißenbach (a place were you practise rope techniques in the field) were it is evaluation time; that means all the techniques of the day before are examined. And after dinner more theory. If you're lucky they'll stop at around 23:00 and you have time for your own studying. And then you may be able to get some sleep from 1 till 6.

You'll get 1 day off during the course, saturday, half way and that's nice to relax.

Finally the exam is on friday (after a theory exam on thursday evening wich is not very hard ) and starts with 50 meters shunting (climbing up a rope with a Tbloc and so) and after that you'll have to do some techniques, rescue-ing a person (cut the rope and lower him down) and so on.

Anyway, now you understand I think that it is very very tough. They want to wear you down (fattigue you) so that they can see if you will make mistakes under stress and fattigueness. Don't take it personal, it's a game. They only want the best to pass. But if you're good and can take a lot of punishment I think it's really worth it.

Here's a nice video of the Eiskanal were we were swimming; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qZNiFVRCK4
Where the kayak turnes in to an eddy (counterstream) you have to reach every eddy swimming with your backpack. The first time I really thought; they are mad swimming in this stuff! But after a couple of turns it changed in to fun! I think that part was for me one of the best. I learned not to fear the white water but to respect it.

Well, quite a book I wrote. Hope you find it usefull.

Greetz,

Michiel

[bertrandber]

so, it will be very tough as i had been told to.
first, thanks a lot to give me all that precious informations. it give me a good idea to prepare myself.
may i ask you some questions more?

can you really climb 50 meters on a rope with only a tibloc ? what happens if you fall down, even in water ?
how many people succeed in your session ?
do you think there is good connections between the former cic-guide and the new ones, so that could provide you job oportunities?
in fact all the information you have are helpfull.
thanks a lot,
bertrand.

[mvdlans]

Salut,

here are your answers, if you use a shunt and a tibloc you can never drop down. You attach the shunt at your laneyard (longue I believe it is in french) and you put a schling in the tbloc and climb up. You don't get at 50 meters above the ground ofcourse. The rope goes over a tree and you climb 5 meters, they let you down and you go up again. (If you drop 50 meters you're dead ofcourse, even in water).

I did it last spring. So I was one of the 4 (there was a 5th but he still had to get his first aid licence).

I don't know if there is a good connection between eveybody. I'm also quite new in the cic scene and don't know many cic people here. Most of them live and work in Austria/ Switzerland. But I do know that it is quite small but very good/ proffessional. The good thing about the cic is that you belong to a group with very very good canyoneers. The brevet d'etat is mondial, so you can guide everywhere. Although the silly (sorry) french still don't want to recconize this brevet.

The drawback is ofcourse that it is a small community.

Well, I think if you use the book of Stefan Hoffman and learn all the techniques by hart and you're in a very good physsical shape you should be allright. Just bare in mind that the two weeks of module 1+2 are not allways fun but you do it for yourself!

Greetz,

Michiel

[bertrandber]

hi
i think it's a very good idea to get the book of stephan. i've never heard about it before. do you know how to find it when it will be possible. for example, the climbing technic (shunt\tibloc) is not known. i'm going to try it but i'm not sure to see clearly how.
about the degree, some cic guide can practice in france. they need to pass another exam at vallon pont d'arc (ardeche). probably they are all french. the high mountain guide syndicate do everything he can to keep the business but they are obliged to respect the LPS (libre prestation de service) which is a law about the liberty of working everywhere in europe. but unfortunately, they are not obliged to give the exam.
it will probably change one day. it is a period of mouvement in french canyoning.
nevermind, there is the rest of the world.
greetings for your exam. you must be happy.
bertrand.

[mvdlans]

Just search with google and you'll find it;


Stefan Hofmann / Guido Ellert
Canyoning Ein Lehr- und Lernbuch

2. Auflage 2008 erscheint im Juni '08
192 Seiten mit rund 500 farbigen Abbildungen und Skizzen
Format 16,3 x 23,0 cm
kartoniert
EAN 9783763360079

ISBN 978-3-7633-6007-9
19,90 Euro [D] • 20,50 Euro [A] • 35,90 SFr

Yes, it's hard times for the mountainguides
Let them stay in the snow and us in the water. We both want to earn a living and can't practice two things at the same time. It's like you have to climb 7b onsight if you want to become a bees escalade, pffffff. Anyway, I think the matter will be solved quite fast now. I know Stefan is busy to get the reconission.

Yes, I'm verry happy that I passed. We'll see how the next episode (module 3) will turn out next spring or autumm.

The shunt technique is like a selfrescue you use in rockclimbing. Are you familliair with that?

Here's alink from petzl were the basics are explained. Here you get some idea what I mean. It's not exact the same with the cic technique but at least you get an idea and its illustrated. http://fr.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils ... ctivite=60

Cheers,

Michiel

[Alban]

... running with backpacks in your neoprene combination
...runnning with people on your back, push ups etc etc

Digne d'un stage commando ce truc !

[bernotom]

Question bête,
Dans le matériel requis pour le stage, ça leur sert à quoi la sonde avalanche?
Pour sonder les vasques? mais elle ne mesure que 2,40m c'est pas énorme.

[mvdlans]

Digne d'un stage commando ce truc !

Oui, c'est vrai. C'est aussie le Commission Internationale Commando's!!!

[mvdlans]

Question bête,
Dans le matériel requis pour le stage, ça leur sert à quoi la sonde avalanche?
Pour sonder les vasques? mais elle ne mesure que 2,40m c'est pas énorme.

You don't use it for checking the pools beforehand. That you do by diving into it (from the watersurface ofcourse eh? )
You use it to get a group of people very quick out of the white water, eddy or whatsoever. That's why it must be, I believe, a orthovox sonde. That one is made of rust free steel and is much much stronger than an aluminium one wich will break or bent.

You can also do some other trics like, reaching an anchor with a carabiner if you have a fifi hook attached to the sonde.

For the rest of the list you really need what is described, longue from austria alpin and the bearclaw knife (that one doesn't fold so you are quicker releasing yourself if you're sucked into the water when the rope is tight. Anyway, you'll practise that rope cutting under water ).

Greetings again,

Michiel

[bertrandber]

Just search with google and you'll find it;


Stefan Hofmann / Guido Ellert
Canyoning Ein Lehr- und Lernbuch

2. Auflage 2008 erscheint im Juni '08
192 Seiten mit rund 500 farbigen Abbildungen und Skizzen
Format 16,3 x 23,0 cm
kartoniert
EAN 9783763360079

ISBN 978-3-7633-6007-9
19,90 Euro [D] • 20,50 Euro [A] • 35,90 SFr

Yes, it's hard times for the mountainguides
Let them stay in the snow and us in the water. We both want to earn a living and can't practice two things at the same time. It's like you have to climb 7b onsight if you want to become a bees escalade, pffffff. Anyway, I think the matter will be solved quite fast now. I know Stefan is busy to get the reconission.

Yes, I'm verry happy that I passed. We'll see how the next episode (module 3) will turn out next spring or autumm.

The shunt technique is like a selfrescue you use in rockclimbing. Are you familliair with that?

Here's alink from petzl were the basics are explained. Here you get some idea what I mean. It's not exact the same with the cic technique but at least you get an idea and its illustrated. http://fr.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils ... ctivite=60

Cheers,

Michiel

i'm not familiar at all with this climbing technic. it is like the contrary of what we learn at efc. i need to try. if i understand well, in the cic, you use the shunt on the upper position and the tbloc on the lower one with a pedal. is it correct ?
unfortunately, the book of stephan seems to be only in german. it will be hard for me.
in any case, i thank you for all your advices.
best regards.
bertrand.

[Bruce]

mais que fait les modo on est sur DC.france et pas DC.usa

[bertrandber]

en l'occurence, c'est un hollandais et un francais qui se parlent.

[Bruce]

Y a marquer internationale dans le titre,j'avais pas vue

[laurent Boero]

Cela dit l'échange est intérressant car ce qui m'embête dans cette histoire c'est mon niveau en anglais. D'ou ma question: "Peut'on suivre le cursus de la CIC si on est uniquement francophone?"

Kénavo

Lolo

[bertrandber]

salut
tu peux suivre les cours en francais. cela dit, l'anglais est un plus. ils partent du principe que tu dois maitriser au moins deux langues pour encadrer surtout que le diplome t'ouvre les portes d'une bonne moitie du monde.
voila, j'espere que ca repondra a ta question.
bertrand

[laurent Boero]

tu dois maitriser au moins deux langues pour encadrer

Pas faux.......

Le Breton... C'a marche...?

[mvdlans]

i'm not familiar at all with this climbing technic. it is like the contrary of what we learn at efc. i need to try. if i understand well, in the cic, you use the shunt on the upper position and the tbloc on the lower one with a pedal. is it correct ?
unfortunately, the book of stephan seems to be only in german. it will be hard for me.

Yes, you use the shunt in the top position and the tbloc like you said.

Even if the book is in german I think it is a must have. There are many pictures in it (at least in the old book) and you will learn also by just looking. Maybe you've got a friend who can translate it a bit?

I entered the course without having red the book and had a hard time learning all the tippical cic stuff. So if you know all the techniques that are in the book the course is much more 'easier' for you.

Are you planning it for 2009?

Greetz,

Michiel

[bertrandber]

i agree 100%. i need the book even if it is in german.
i wanted to do the cic course last year but finally i couldn't. normally i will be ready for the next may session (financely and physicaly). i have already all the stuff. i bought it last year. ]
i will probably experiment the cic punishment in a few month.
see you
bertrand

[mvdlans]

If you're in the neighbourhood bertrand, I could learn you some stuff...

I'm in the herault (34) and you?

Good to know you will do the course.

Ciao,

Michiel

[Bruce]

c'est je comprends pas et puis le hollandais mvd! il ecrit mieux le français que moi (http://www.descente-canyon.com/forums/v ... p?id=10095) et il n'apprendra jamais le francer comme ca! ok,je sors

[antilolo]

et puis le hollandais mvd! il ecrit mieux le français que moi

Faut en profiter! Un cours d'anglais et de français en même temps