Trümmelbach : un nouveau grand

[bernotom]

Alternative: Apprendre le Suisse-Allemand

C'est tout l'hiver que vous avez le temps

[Laurinette]

dankre für den Rat!

[Laurinette]

excuse moi, mauvaise prononciation:

dankRRRe füRRR den RRRRat!

[Timo]

excuse moi, mauvaise prononciation:

dankRRRe füRRR den RRRRat!

Gruass, Timo

[holzi]

or else you can wait for the canyon to become easier: for example Tine des Fonds last year was not really difficult. With the glacier and the snow getting smaller and smaller, sometimes it is just a matter of years !
or else you can also count on others in your group (on Holzi to hold the rope for us for example! )

Maybe we should do a historic trip in Trummelbach using a maximum of 2 of the bolts to get the true experience

Yes - if we wait enough years we'll be able to do Trummelbach in the Summer!

Good idea Evan, I'm in.....we can ask Andreas Brunner if he joins us on the historic descent. Pascal has also some good expirience from his USA trips

[Ev]

or else you can wait for the canyon to become easier: for example Tine des Fonds last year was not really difficult. With the glacier and the snow getting smaller and smaller, sometimes it is just a matter of years !
or else you can also count on others in your group (on Holzi to hold the rope for us for example! )

Maybe we should do a historic trip in Trummelbach using a maximum of 2 of the bolts to get the true experience

Yes - if we wait enough years we'll be able to do Trummelbach in the Summer!

Good idea Evan, I'm in.....we can ask Andreas Brunner if he joins us on the historic descent. Pascal has also some good expirience from his USA trips

Maybe we can take the new releasable water anchor they have developped in the US and use zero bolts in Trummelbach

[bernotom]

Maybe we should do a historic trip in Trummelbach using a maximum of 2 of the bolts to get the true experience

Yes - if we wait enough years we'll be able to do Trummelbach in the Summer!

Good idea Evan, I'm in.....we can ask Andreas Brunner if he joins us on the historic descent. Pascal has also some good expirience from his USA trips

Maybe we can take the new releasable water anchor they have developped in the US and use zero bolts in Trummelbach

Nice idea, I'm in too!

What is this water anchor?

[holzi]

Maybe we can take the new releasable water anchor they have developped in the US and use zero bolts in Trummelbach

I doubt the wateranchor works in Trümmelbach. This anchor is made for potholes which are not filled up and create enought frition to the rope and bag.

[@ndrew78]

bonjour tout le monde, notre dernière allé avec 3 amis pour faire le canyoning de glace Trümmelbach dans la vidéo suivante:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J_rPWRJ ... ture=share

la situation des armes est minimaliste, mais étant donné les conditions météo actuelles, je dirais que c'est un problème pour l'année prochaine.
bonjour et bonne vision

[Eric]

Ciao Andrea

Ho visto le tue foto della discesa. Molto piu freddo che quando l'abbiamo fatto insieme.
Una bella differenza di temperatura, dalla reunion al Trummelbach
Grazie per l'informazione sui ancoraggi

saluti

ps : Un bacio a Romano quando lo vedi (sabato)
Un po troppo lontano per me

[Caracal]

Il y avait du mister freeze. Ca me rappelle des souvenirs.

[bernotom]

bonjour tout le monde, notre dernière allé avec 3 amis pour faire le canyoning de glace Trümmelbach dans la vidéo suivante:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J_rPWRJ ... ture=share

la situation des armes est minimaliste, mais étant donné les conditions météo actuelles, je dirais que c'est un problème pour l'année prochaine.
bonjour et bonne vision

Nice conditions

The same for us in Gries the day before

[fiumicicoli]

La vidéo est très cool, compliments
On est nombreux a être malades à ce que je vois

Cette année les conditions ont été difficiles dans l'Oberland

Expertise Canyon HIVERNAL
mais pour de vrai!

[Caracal]

Trop dure la vie

[bernotom]

Cette année les conditions ont été difficiles dans l'Oberland

Ben le weekend avec les conditions parfaite tu es resté chez toi!!!

[@ndrew78]

grazie a tutti per i complimenti

per Eric : si moti gradi di differenza da reunion circa 35!!!!

[holzi]

http://www.descente-canyon.com/forums/v ... 78#p266678

[holzi]

Canyoning Trümmelbach V
Absichtserklärung vom Oktober 2017 zwischen der Kaspar von Almen AG und des Schweizer Bergführerverbandes SBV.
Die wichtigsten Punkte:
Canyoning ist ausschliesslich ausserhalb der Betriebs- und Öffnungszeiten der Anlage von Almen AG gestattet!
Der Betrieb der von Almen AG ist in der Regel geschossen vom 15. November bis 15. Dezember und dem 10. Januar und 15. März. In diesen Zeiträumen ist Canyoning unter Voranmeldung erlaubt.
Begehungen nur unter telefonischer Voranmeldung! Tel.Nr. 0041 33 855 32 32. Über die konkreten Öffnungszeiten und über Arbeiten an den Schluchtanlagen gibt diese Nummer Auskunft.
Die Wege, Stege, Brücken und Tunnels der von Almen AG dürfen nicht benutzt werden. Vorbehalten bleiben Notfallsituationen.
Der Ausstieg aus dem Canyon erfolgt im Talboden ausschliesslich auf der linken Bachseite (Fliessrichtung) nach dem letzten Wasserfall.
Das Ersetzen von Abseilhaken ist erlaubt. Neue Installationen dürfen nur mit dem Einverständnis der von Almen AG angebracht werden.
Die Schlucht ist mit v5a5V bewertet und damit sehr erfahrenen Canyoningsportlern vorbehalten!
Die von Almen AG übernimmt keinerlei Haftung für Unfälle im Zusammenhang mit Canyoning.
Wir bitten alle Canyonisten, sich strickte an die obgenannten Punkte zu halten! Bei Nichtbefolgen durch einzelne Personen behält sich die von Almen AG vor, die Absichtserklärung zu kündigen und die Schlucht für Canyoning zu verbieten.

[holzi]

Canyoning Trümmelbach V
Letter of intent dated October 2017 between Kaspar von Almen AG and the Swiss Mountain Guides Association SBV.
The most important points:
Canyoning is only permitted outside the opening and operating hours of the von Almen AG facility!
The operation of von Almen AG is usually closed from 15 November to 15 December and 10 January and 15 March. Canyoning is permitted during these periods by appointment.
Visits only by appointment! Phone no. 0041 33 855 32 32

This number provides information about the specific opening hours and work on the ravines.
The paths, bridges and tunnels of von Almen AG must not be used. Emergency situations are reserved.
The exit from the canyon in the valley floor is exclusively on the left side of the stream (direction of flow) after the last waterfall.
Abseiling hooks may be replaced if in old/bad conditions. New installations may only be installed with the consent of von Almen AG.
The gorge is rated v5a5V and therefore reserved for very experienced canyoning enthusiasts with adequate equipment!
Von Almen AG accepts no liability whatsoever for accidents in connection with canyoning.
We ask all canyonists to stick to the above-mentioned points! In the event of non-observance by individual persons, von Almen AG reserves the right to cancel the declaration of intent and prohibit the canyon for canyoning.

[zede63]

Merci pour tout le boulot de tractation avec la famille Von Allmen. Pouvoir re-faire cette descente mythique, c'est vraiment une belle expérience !

[Caracal]

Enfin, des bonnes nouvelles. Voilà une avancée positive et équilibrée.

[emilium]

Enfin, des bonnes nouvelles. Voilà une avancée positive et équilibrée.

Hum...

Prenons garde et n'oublions pas qu'il y a des amis, des alliés et des ennemis : on finit par vénérer l'oppresseur quand il dépend de lui que nous ayons notre pitance...

A la rigueur, qu'il s'agisse d'une nouvelle "positive" ça se discute : si on se plaint d'avoir des chaussures trouées et qu'on nous les retire, on fait l'expérience cruelle que mieux vaut des chaussures pourries que de se geler les pieds avec pas de chaussure du tout. Alors quand on nous rend nos chaussures pourries on est content, ça fait du bien, c'est "positif", et on est presque tenté de dire "merci" à nos "éducateurs", qui nous ont par là donné une belle leçon d'humilité.
Mais dire que la solution est "équilibrée" non ! Si je le comprend bien, ce "compromis" n'a aucune valeur juridique et ne dépend que de la "bonne volonté" du Seigneur qui règne sur ses terres (en l’occurrence, sa montagne, son canyon). C'est la propriété privée qui impose sa loi, contraire à l'esprit du code civil Suisse, par un tour de passe passe juridique, et c'est notre Seigneur qui, dans sa sublime magnanimité, concède provisoirement notre passage. Et le résultat est assez triste car il nous divisera : maintenant, les pratiquants seront divisés entre ceux, très minoritaires, qui ne voudront pas se plier aux exigences du seigneur, par exmeple en descendant les gorges sans lui téléphoner. Ceux là seront rejetés par leurs pairs, ironiquement transformés malgré eux en flics pour le compte du Seigneur, qu'ils combattait pourtant jusque là. On peu seulement espérer que chacun gardera du recul et qu'il n'y aura pas d'excès de zèle : quand le Droit ne sert que le plus fort, il ne faut plus le prendre trop au sérieux. C'est éminemment le cas concernant le droit à la propriété privée terrienne. Au pire, le Seigneur Von Allmen interdira à nouveau la gorge, il faudra à nouveau se battre, et se montrer discret en y allant, à nos risques et périls, comme cela s'est déroulé l'hiver dernier, ce n'est un secret pour personne.
Ceci dit, cela n'enlève rien aux efforts d'Holzi et de tous ceux qui se battent et qu'il faut remercier...

c'est une superbe descente, il faut y aller !

En outre, j'attends encore la sentence de la justice suisse pour mon affaire de 2015 : pour rappel, nous avons dû payer une amende de 140 CHF chacun alors que rien n'indiquait que la gorge était interdite, que contrairement à ce que certains ont pu insinuer, nous n'avons jamais manqué de respect ou de savoir vivre (quelle idée?!), que tout indiquait que le parcours de la gorge était autorisé (multiples publications, code civil suisse, fréquentation régulière sans problème, ...). Non : ne prenons pas la Loi trop au sérieux, sourions face aux légalistes en bois dur, et voyons ce que sert loi, ou plutôt qui elle sert...

[holzi]

Actually it is an almost perfect situation which we have now with Trümmelbach V and I do not understand you in this case Emile.
Since the opening at the 15.11 already 5-6 Teams went down the Trümmelbach and all were happy and the situation with the calling works perfect.

The mandatory phone-call is not there to beg Mr. Von Almen to allow you a descent.
The phone call is mandatory because they usually work during the time where the walkways are closed to the public on the walkway and on the rock formations and trees above.
They clean the walls from loose rock and trees and make it safe for the tourists visiting the walkways. The cleaning helps not only them but it is also helpful for us canyoneers!

The tourist attraction of these waterfalls started 1877 and the family Von Almen got the right of the single use of the left and right side land parcel. At that time no-one could have foreseen that this gorge could be interesting for any kind of sport!
I totally understand Mr. Von Almen when he does not allow a descent during the time the walkways are open to the public as he can be taken responsible for any accident happened.
These tourists visiting the Trümmelbachfalls are from all over the world and there is a chance that some stupid guy think he can jump in to the canyon too when he sees us canyoneers down in the canyon.
There was already a deadly accident when a 12 year old child felt in the canyon from one of the platforms in 2009. This boy was from the US and as we all know the US rules/judges can make stupid decisions.

I recently also spoke to a mountain guide who met you at the day you did this descent in Trümmelbach where you got the fine. This mountain guide told you guys before you started, that it is not allowed to do this canyon and that it is a bad idea to go when the walkways are open. So I really wonder why you did this descent despite his warning.......

[emilium]

Actually it is an almost perfect situation which we have now with Trümmelbach V and I do not understand you in this case Emile.
Since the opening at the 15.11 already 5-6 Teams went down the Trümmelbach and all were happy and the situation with the calling works perfect.

The mandatory phone-call is not there to beg Mr. Von Almen to allow you a descent.
The phone call is mandatory because they usually work during the time where the walkways are closed to the public on the walkway and on the rock formations and trees above.
They clean the walls from loose rock and trees and make it safe for the tourists visiting the walkways. The cleaning helps not only them but it is also helpful for us canyoneers!

The tourist attraction of these waterfalls started 1877 and the family Von Almen got the right of the single use of the left and right side land parcel. At that time no-one could have foreseen that this gorge could be interesting for any kind of sport!
I totally understand Mr. Von Almen when he does not allow a descent during the time the walkways are open to the public as he can be taken responsible for any accident happened.
These tourists visiting the Trümmelbachfalls are from all over the world and there is a chance that some stupid guy think he can jump in to the canyon too when he sees us canyoneers down in the canyon.
There was already a deadly accident when a 12 year old child felt in the canyon from one of the platforms in 2009. This boy was from the US and as we all know the US rules/judges can make stupid decisions.

I recently also spoke to a mountain guide who met you at the day you did this descent in Trümmelbach where you got the fine. This mountain guide told you guys before you started, that it is not allowed to do this canyon and that it is a bad idea to go when the walkways are open. So I really wonder why you did this descent despite his warning.......

Ok now our disagreement is clear, on the principle. But your words have a prounounced biter taste.
First of all, and most disapointing to me, I can only say that the mountain guide is lying or that is memory is not correct. I remember very clearly this event as I had to repeat it, again and again, and the two others, Andrej et Soussou, can confirm what I'm repeating again here : we saw Oscar's team before the descent, and Franz Baumgartner and his team just after, while the policeman was giving us a fine (because Thun, court had called him, directly called by Von Allmen). We did not see any other canyoneers. It sounds crazy to me that I learn here, 2 years later, that someone says he had told me the cayon was not allowed when the toursit path were openned. No one had told me ! I told everyone on descent-canyon and everywhere that I was going to do this canyon, a month before. No one said a word about interdiction. This can be tchecked here on the forum. Bernotom notamment, qu'on ne peut soupçonner de ne pas respecter les règles, me suggèrait Trummelbach V si les conditions le permettait. Franz Baumgartner wrote a special note on his website just after we had our problem. What you say is really unfair ! Please tell me who told you that ! Why now ? The swiss mountain guide was going to defend my case and was ready to pay a lawyer; They wanted to use me and my determination to make apply what we all beleived to be the law at that time. You asked not to talk about it here on the forum and I respected your strategy. Finally the lawyer, M. Stempfi, said the case was probably not winnable because jurisprudence was on Von Allmen side. The swiss mountain guides then decided it was not worth it and stoped paying the lawyer, which I completly understand. I have been clear, honest and determinated all allong, not in order to get my poor 140CHF (it was not worth the pain and I still can get another fine, paying for example for procedure fees. What you say now is really disapointing to me.

On the other hand, we have a rock bottom desagreament. In what you say, there is no problem with a man buying a whole mountain and canyon. To me, nature is before all a common good. Swiss civil law says that despite one can own a land crossed by a river, he must keap it accessible to the public (mushroms pickers, fichermen, ...). Here it is not the case because the law does not condiers Trummelbach canyon as a river. I leave to everyone's appreciation whether or not we talk about a river. My main point is : I understand this story about Von Allmen family history, and I understand you're sentimental about it. But this kinf of site should bellong to the public.
You say we all know US rules/judge can make stupid decision. Please strat criticizing your country if you can...
The accident in 2009 happened without any canyoneer involved. your argument is weird : you really think one could feel like juping into the gorge besause he sees canyoneers inside ?! When paragliders take off, no sepctators around feels wings groing on his back and jumps from the cleaf !
You say you understand Von Allmen when he does not allow canyoning during the opening time of the pathways. But I think he should never have the privilege to decide this. The decision should bellong to the public.
your perspective is really sad. You completly accept the almyghty private property which rotten everywhere the conscience of the importance of common goods. It is sad, but now it gets insulting with this alleged testimony of this mountain guide, 2 years later. I hope this part will at least vanish away, so we can stay on a disagreement on the principles, which we can talk upon, and not a conflit of persons... I insist : you told me not to talk about the swiss mountain guide paying a lawyer, because Von Allmen could see it on the forum and adapt his defens conséquently. I did as you said. Now my case is not finished, and Von Allmen's lawyer can still read the forum. I defense is mainly based on the fact that I did not know and could not know. What you say suggest I'm lying from the beginning. Thanks for that !

[emilium]

Actually it is an almost perfect situation which we have now with Trümmelbach V and I do not understand you in this case Emile.
Since the opening at the 15.11 already 5-6 Teams went down the Trümmelbach and all were happy and the situation with the calling works perfect.

The mandatory phone-call is not there to beg Mr. Von Almen to allow you a descent.
The phone call is mandatory because they usually work during the time where the walkways are closed to the public on the walkway and on the rock formations and trees above.
They clean the walls from loose rock and trees and make it safe for the tourists visiting the walkways. The cleaning helps not only them but it is also helpful for us canyoneers!

The tourist attraction of these waterfalls started 1877 and the family Von Almen got the right of the single use of the left and right side land parcel. At that time no-one could have foreseen that this gorge could be interesting for any kind of sport!
I totally understand Mr. Von Almen when he does not allow a descent during the time the walkways are open to the public as he can be taken responsible for any accident happened.
These tourists visiting the Trümmelbachfalls are from all over the world and there is a chance that some stupid guy think he can jump in to the canyon too when he sees us canyoneers down in the canyon.
There was already a deadly accident when a 12 year old child felt in the canyon from one of the platforms in 2009. This boy was from the US and as we all know the US rules/judges can make stupid decisions.

I recently also spoke to a mountain guide who met you at the day you did this descent in Trümmelbach where you got the fine. This mountain guide told you guys before you started, that it is not allowed to do this canyon and that it is a bad idea to go when the walkways are open. So I really wonder why you did this descent despite his warning.......

Ok now our disagreement is clear, on the principle. But your words have a prounounced biter taste.
First of all, and most disapointing to me, I can only say that the mountain guide is lying or that is memory is not correct. I remember very clearly this event as I had to repeat it, again and again, and the two others, Andrej et Soussou, can confirm what I'm repeating again here : we saw Oscar's team before the descent, and Franz Baumgartner and his team just after, while the policeman was giving us a fine (because Thun, court had called him, directly called by Von Allmen). We did not see any other canyoneers. It sounds crazy to me that I learn here, 2 years later, that someone says he had told me the cayon was not allowed when the toursit path were openned. No one had told me ! I told everyone on descent-canyon and everywhere that I was going to do this canyon, a month before. No one said a word about interdiction. This can be tchecked here on the forum. Bernotom notamment, qu'on ne peut soupçonner de ne pas respecter les règles, me suggèrait Trummelbach V si les conditions le permettait. Franz Baumgartner wrote a special note on his website just after we had our problem. What you say is really unfair ! Please tell me who told you that ! Why now ? The swiss mountain guide was going to defend my case and was ready to pay a lawyer; They wanted to use me and my determination to make apply what we all beleived to be the law at that time. You asked not to talk about it here on the forum and I respected your strategy. Finally the lawyer, M. Stempfi, said the case was probably not winnable because jurisprudence was on Von Allmen side. The swiss mountain guides then decided it was not worth it and stoped paying the lawyer, which I completly understand. I have been clear, honest and determinated all allong, not in order to get my poor 140CHF (it was not worth the pain and I still can get another fine, paying for example for procedure fees. What you say now is really disapointing to me. Notice I stay very polite despite what it means about me and the output of the trial...

On the other hand, we have a rock bottom desagreament. In what you say, there is no problem with a man buying a whole mountain and canyon. To me, nature is before all a common good. Swiss civil law says that despite one can own a land crossed by a river, he must keap it accessible to the public (mushroms pickers, fichermen, ...). Here it is not the case because the law does not condiers Trummelbach canyon as a river. I leave to everyone's appreciation whether or not we talk about a river. My main point is : I understand this story about Von Allmen family history, and I understand you're sentimental about it. But this kinf of site should bellong to the public.
You say we all know US rules/judge can make stupid decision. Please strat criticizing your country if you can...
The accident in 2009 happened without any canyoneer involved. your argument is weird : you really think one could feel like juping into the gorge besause he sees canyoneers inside ?! When paragliders take off, no sepctators around feels wings groing on his back and jumps from the cleaf !
You say you understand Von Allmen when he does not allow canyoning during the opening time of the pathways. But I think he should never have the privilege to decide this. The decision should bellong to the public.

your perspective is really sad. You completly accept the almyghty private property which rotten everywhere the conscience of the importance of common goods. It is sad, but now it gets insulting with this alleged testimony of this mountain guide, 2 years later. I hope this part will at least vanish away, so we can stay on a disagreement on the principles, which we can talk upon, and not a conflit of persons...

I insist : you told me not to talk about the swiss mountain guide paying a lawyer, because Von Allmen could see it on the forum and adapt his defens conséquently. I did as you said. Now my case is not finished, and Von Allmen's lawyer can still read the forum. I defense is mainly based on the fact that, if the gorge is really forbiden, which remains to be established by the justice, in anyway I did not know and could not have known it. I maintain all of this is true. What you say suggest I'm lying from the beginning, and destroy directly my defense. Thanks for that !